Interview with Marshall Chasin M.Sc., Aud (C), FAAA, Author, Musicians and the Prevention of Hearing Loss
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AO/Beck: Hi Marshall. Nice to chat with you again.
Chasin: Hi Doug, I hope it's warmer in Saint Louis than in Canada!
AO/Beck: Thankfully, we've had a warming trend - the snow and ice have melted! Before we get to the subject at hand (Musicians and the Prevention of Hearing Loss), please tell me a little about your initials and your title? I think the Canadian suffixes are a little unusual to my eye and perhaps to some of the readers as well.
Chasin: Yes certainly. I have a Bachelor's in Science and Mathematics
and I have a Master's in Science in Audiology and Speech Sciences. In Canada we use the M.Sc as opposed to the M.A or M.S. used in the States.
It means the same thing. The Aud(C) is the federal designation, it's like the CCC-A.
AO/Beck: OK, got it. Thanks. Now tell me a bit about your actual employment situation - what is your primary position?
Chasin: My primary position is the Director of Auditory Research at the Musician's Clinic of Canada. We have clinics in Hamilton, and in Toronto, Ontario. We do a little of everything regarding the health of musicians. If the musician has a back or a wrist problem, we can treat that too, but of course, that would have nothing to do with me. If they have a hearing problem, generally, I see them. Interestingly, 9 out of 10 musicians who come in for any problem at all -related to hearing or not - have the beginnings of a notch at 4000 to 6000 Hz. So as you can imagine, a lot of what we try to accomplish has to do with prevention through education and environmental changes and other areas.
AO/Beck: So you see all manner of musicians from drummers, to cellists
to pianists with all manner of musician specific problems?
Chasin: Yes. For example, suppose a drummer reads in Modern Drummer magazine that you have to WEAR ear earplugs, and he uses a store bought
pair of industrial strength earplugs. As a result of too much attenuation, he loses his ability to hear and judge the loudness of the drums, so he starts playing the drums harder and louder and then he finds a few months later his wrists are bothering him. So he started out trying to do the right thing, and as a result he has all sorts of problems. The solution for this drummer was to fit him with appropriate musician's quality ear plugs.
AO/Beck: Do you recommend different hearing protection for different instruments?
Chasin: Yes I do. Generally, for most rock and blues musicians the ER-15 is more than sufficient for the guitar and bass players. The drummer usually needs to wear the ER-25. Most rock and blues musicians don't practice a great deal. They may play a gig on Saturday, and then they may not touch the instrument again until the next Saturday. So they really don't have multiple hours of exposure daily. They may only play for 6 to 7 hours a week at 112 to 115 dB, but given the 15 dB of attenuation of the ER15, they're probably not doing themselves any significant damage if they consistently use the earplugs. If you look at some of the quieter groups, those musicians may use another type of ear plug called a 'vented tuned plug', which is simply an earplug with a hole in it. Depending on the diameter of the sound bore, you get different attenuation factors. In the most open position, which is about 3 mm wide, they are acoustically transparent to about 2000 Hz, and then they give a high frequency roll off. These would be ideal for a woodwind player, or a sax player who sits in front of the drummer, to attenuate the rim-shots and the high-hat cymbals. So, it's not just the instrument you play, but it also relates to the environment you perform in. Of course, if thatsame woodwind player is in a classical environment, the ER-15 is probably ideal.
AO/Beck: I thought I had read recently there is a new ER-10?
Chasin: Well, there is a new product they've come out with called the
ER-9. Frankly, of the 5000 musicians I have seen in the last decade, the vast majority say the ER-15 is perfect. I think the ER-9 is just not enough for most applications. I've only recommended It once - and it was because the musician was really scared to wear the ER-15 because he thought it would be too much attenuation. More often than not, they let me pick what's best for them.
AO/Beck: All right, so if you don't know much about music, and if you
have a musician who needs hearing protection, can you pretty much just
pick the ER-15 most of the time?
Chasin: Yes, that'll work. Again, drummers usually need more protection, but you cannot go too far wrong with the ER-15. In fact, if you take the element out of the sound bore, you're left with what I called above the 'vented tuned plug'. So, you can insert select-a-vent tubing or plugs to adjust the response as needed.
AO/Beck: What about the actual attenuation of the ER-15? I thought I
had read years ago that the advantage of the musician's ear plugs was that allowed less attenuation at about 2000 to 3000 Hz to help allow conversation, while reducing lows and highs?
Chasin; They pretty much yield a flat 15 dB attenuation. You may get a
little more attenuation in the high tones due to the reduced volume of the ear canal, but generally you'll get a flat 15 dB attenuation. Again, you can modify them and change the response a bit here and there. In fact, they offer an ER-15SP that allows less attenuation above 2000 Hz.
AO/Beck: Do you find any difference in the earplugs made with
powder-liquid versus silicone?
Chasin: No not really. I used to use powder-liquid, now I use silicone.
AO/Beck: What about the impression itself, how deep do you go?
Chasin: I try to go just past the second bend. The depth with ear plugs is not as critical as it is with CICs. With CICs you want the receiver to point to the eardrum. In earplugs, it's less of an issue.
AO/Beck: I guess most of the musicians I've seen are guitarists, bass
players and drummers. Certainly I've seen some classical musicians too, but here in the Blues Capital of the Nation (uh oh, I hope I don't have to defend claim to the readers in Chicago) we get lots of electric blues players, and they usually come in for tinnitus issues. Is that true in your practice too? Do the musicians come in primarily based on tinnitus issues, or for hearing loss complaints?
Chasin: Yes, it's usually tinnitus combined with fear! That is, you have to realize that for many of these people music is their whole life. Consequently, if they think they are losing their hearing, they have some fairly well-founded fears they need to deal with and address. When they hear some famous musician like Pete Townsend and others talk about tinnitus and hearing loss, they might personalize it and think about and get tested, or get hearing protection - or both.
AO/Beck: Marshall, do the musicians actually follow-up and buy earplugs after you recommend them?
Chasin: I did a study in 1990 to see what percentage of my patients got earplugs after I recommended it., it was about one third. In 1995, it had increased to about two thirds and by 1997 it had increased to almost three quarters. It could be that I'm a better salesperson now than I was then, but I think the bigger factor is that over the last decade, it became 'cool' to wear earplugs. Maybe it made you look more like a serious musician. I don't know for sure, but I attribute the increased usage of earplugs to the famous musicians and rockers out there who are talking about hearing loss and tinnitus.
AO/Beck: What are your thought s on the In-The-Ear monitors that so
many stage acts are using?
Chasin: I recommend a lot of those too. I think they are useful because they increase the sound quality to the musician and they tend to maximally attenuate the sounds which are not being patched directly into
the monitor. So overall, better quality with less overall SPL, it's a good idea for singers and others too.
AO/Beck: Marshall, I know the previous book was titled 'Musicians and
the Prevention of Hearing Loss', and I believe that is still available through Singular in San Diego. I also heard you have a new book. What can you tell me about that one?
Chasin: The Singular book was written for the audiologist, it's technical and covers lots of information the musician wouldn't be too interested in. Nonetheless, the new book is actually written for the musician and I'm publishing it myself, so it's fairly inexpensive.
AO/Beck: Please give me the reference for the readers who want to track down a copy.
Chasin: The distributor will be Norris Whitney and I imagine that one can obtain it elsewhere as well. The book won't be out until the early summer. The title is 'Hear the Music'. When published, the book can be obtained by emailing Norris-Whitney Communications, Inc. at www.NOR.COM/NWC or they can send an email to me at Marshall.Chasin@home.com. I also have a website at www.musiciansclinics.com and we've got lots of good information up there too.
AO/Beck: Thanks Marshall. I appreciate your time this evening.
Chasin: Hi Doug, I hope it's warmer in Saint Louis than in Canada!
AO/Beck: Thankfully, we've had a warming trend - the snow and ice have melted! Before we get to the subject at hand (Musicians and the Prevention of Hearing Loss), please tell me a little about your initials and your title? I think the Canadian suffixes are a little unusual to my eye and perhaps to some of the readers as well.
Chasin: Yes certainly. I have a Bachelor's in Science and Mathematics
and I have a Master's in Science in Audiology and Speech Sciences. In Canada we use the M.Sc as opposed to the M.A or M.S. used in the States.
It means the same thing. The Aud(C) is the federal designation, it's like the CCC-A.
AO/Beck: OK, got it. Thanks. Now tell me a bit about your actual employment situation - what is your primary position?
Chasin: My primary position is the Director of Auditory Research at the Musician's Clinic of Canada. We have clinics in Hamilton, and in Toronto, Ontario. We do a little of everything regarding the health of musicians. If the musician has a back or a wrist problem, we can treat that too, but of course, that would have nothing to do with me. If they have a hearing problem, generally, I see them. Interestingly, 9 out of 10 musicians who come in for any problem at all -related to hearing or not - have the beginnings of a notch at 4000 to 6000 Hz. So as you can imagine, a lot of what we try to accomplish has to do with prevention through education and environmental changes and other areas.
AO/Beck: So you see all manner of musicians from drummers, to cellists
to pianists with all manner of musician specific problems?
Chasin: Yes. For example, suppose a drummer reads in Modern Drummer magazine that you have to WEAR ear earplugs, and he uses a store bought
pair of industrial strength earplugs. As a result of too much attenuation, he loses his ability to hear and judge the loudness of the drums, so he starts playing the drums harder and louder and then he finds a few months later his wrists are bothering him. So he started out trying to do the right thing, and as a result he has all sorts of problems. The solution for this drummer was to fit him with appropriate musician's quality ear plugs.
AO/Beck: Do you recommend different hearing protection for different instruments?
Chasin: Yes I do. Generally, for most rock and blues musicians the ER-15 is more than sufficient for the guitar and bass players. The drummer usually needs to wear the ER-25. Most rock and blues musicians don't practice a great deal. They may play a gig on Saturday, and then they may not touch the instrument again until the next Saturday. So they really don't have multiple hours of exposure daily. They may only play for 6 to 7 hours a week at 112 to 115 dB, but given the 15 dB of attenuation of the ER15, they're probably not doing themselves any significant damage if they consistently use the earplugs. If you look at some of the quieter groups, those musicians may use another type of ear plug called a 'vented tuned plug', which is simply an earplug with a hole in it. Depending on the diameter of the sound bore, you get different attenuation factors. In the most open position, which is about 3 mm wide, they are acoustically transparent to about 2000 Hz, and then they give a high frequency roll off. These would be ideal for a woodwind player, or a sax player who sits in front of the drummer, to attenuate the rim-shots and the high-hat cymbals. So, it's not just the instrument you play, but it also relates to the environment you perform in. Of course, if thatsame woodwind player is in a classical environment, the ER-15 is probably ideal.
AO/Beck: I thought I had read recently there is a new ER-10?
Chasin: Well, there is a new product they've come out with called the
ER-9. Frankly, of the 5000 musicians I have seen in the last decade, the vast majority say the ER-15 is perfect. I think the ER-9 is just not enough for most applications. I've only recommended It once - and it was because the musician was really scared to wear the ER-15 because he thought it would be too much attenuation. More often than not, they let me pick what's best for them.
AO/Beck: All right, so if you don't know much about music, and if you
have a musician who needs hearing protection, can you pretty much just
pick the ER-15 most of the time?
Chasin: Yes, that'll work. Again, drummers usually need more protection, but you cannot go too far wrong with the ER-15. In fact, if you take the element out of the sound bore, you're left with what I called above the 'vented tuned plug'. So, you can insert select-a-vent tubing or plugs to adjust the response as needed.
AO/Beck: What about the actual attenuation of the ER-15? I thought I
had read years ago that the advantage of the musician's ear plugs was that allowed less attenuation at about 2000 to 3000 Hz to help allow conversation, while reducing lows and highs?
Chasin; They pretty much yield a flat 15 dB attenuation. You may get a
little more attenuation in the high tones due to the reduced volume of the ear canal, but generally you'll get a flat 15 dB attenuation. Again, you can modify them and change the response a bit here and there. In fact, they offer an ER-15SP that allows less attenuation above 2000 Hz.
AO/Beck: Do you find any difference in the earplugs made with
powder-liquid versus silicone?
Chasin: No not really. I used to use powder-liquid, now I use silicone.
AO/Beck: What about the impression itself, how deep do you go?
Chasin: I try to go just past the second bend. The depth with ear plugs is not as critical as it is with CICs. With CICs you want the receiver to point to the eardrum. In earplugs, it's less of an issue.
AO/Beck: I guess most of the musicians I've seen are guitarists, bass
players and drummers. Certainly I've seen some classical musicians too, but here in the Blues Capital of the Nation (uh oh, I hope I don't have to defend claim to the readers in Chicago) we get lots of electric blues players, and they usually come in for tinnitus issues. Is that true in your practice too? Do the musicians come in primarily based on tinnitus issues, or for hearing loss complaints?
Chasin: Yes, it's usually tinnitus combined with fear! That is, you have to realize that for many of these people music is their whole life. Consequently, if they think they are losing their hearing, they have some fairly well-founded fears they need to deal with and address. When they hear some famous musician like Pete Townsend and others talk about tinnitus and hearing loss, they might personalize it and think about and get tested, or get hearing protection - or both.
AO/Beck: Marshall, do the musicians actually follow-up and buy earplugs after you recommend them?
Chasin: I did a study in 1990 to see what percentage of my patients got earplugs after I recommended it., it was about one third. In 1995, it had increased to about two thirds and by 1997 it had increased to almost three quarters. It could be that I'm a better salesperson now than I was then, but I think the bigger factor is that over the last decade, it became 'cool' to wear earplugs. Maybe it made you look more like a serious musician. I don't know for sure, but I attribute the increased usage of earplugs to the famous musicians and rockers out there who are talking about hearing loss and tinnitus.
AO/Beck: What are your thought s on the In-The-Ear monitors that so
many stage acts are using?
Chasin: I recommend a lot of those too. I think they are useful because they increase the sound quality to the musician and they tend to maximally attenuate the sounds which are not being patched directly into
the monitor. So overall, better quality with less overall SPL, it's a good idea for singers and others too.
AO/Beck: Marshall, I know the previous book was titled 'Musicians and
the Prevention of Hearing Loss', and I believe that is still available through Singular in San Diego. I also heard you have a new book. What can you tell me about that one?
Chasin: The Singular book was written for the audiologist, it's technical and covers lots of information the musician wouldn't be too interested in. Nonetheless, the new book is actually written for the musician and I'm publishing it myself, so it's fairly inexpensive.
AO/Beck: Please give me the reference for the readers who want to track down a copy.
Chasin: The distributor will be Norris Whitney and I imagine that one can obtain it elsewhere as well. The book won't be out until the early summer. The title is 'Hear the Music'. When published, the book can be obtained by emailing Norris-Whitney Communications, Inc. at www.NOR.COM/NWC or they can send an email to me at Marshall.Chasin@home.com. I also have a website at www.musiciansclinics.com and we've got lots of good information up there too.
AO/Beck: Thanks Marshall. I appreciate your time this evening.
Marshall Chasin, AuD
Director of Auditory Research at Musicians' Clinics of Canada